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#13250858 May 17, 2017 at 01:48 PM
Knight
189 Posts
Mir and I were talking about this yesterday. It's possible to cycle through your pets to keep up all the useful debuffs at once. link

If you look at the screenshot posted by myic90, he is summoning a pet, using its debuff, then dismissing the pet, summoning the next pet, etc. He's using the superchrono plugin to track when his debuffs will expire. He also has an alias mapped to the 1 key, which is most likely a shortcut to dismiss pet. Stuff like this can make loremaster one of the more difficult classes to play well, but if you can master it, you'll be a huge help to your group.
Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
+0
#13316024 Jun 24, 2017 at 04:26 AM · Edited 9 months ago
Knight
189 Posts
I can't sleep tonight, so I decided to mess around with some math to see how much extra crit chance would affect dps.

I used my hunter to get a ballpark idea of how much damage comes from crits vs. normal hits vs. devastates. Different classes will have different multipliers, so the math would be a little bit different depending on class and build. But I looked at my hunter and rounded some numbers to make the math simpler.

Critical hits hit about 3x as hard as a normal hit.
Devastates hit about 4x as hard as a normal hit.
Crit chance at 30%
Dev. chance at 10%

Suppose I do 100 attacks and the RNG is about average.
Normal hits average 10000
Critical hits average 30000
Devastates average 40000

My damage from those 100 attacks would be:
(10000)* 60 normal hits
+(30000)*30 critical hits
+(40000) *10 devastating hits
_____________
190000

Now, suppose my awesome loremaster friend is wearing 4-pieces of the pelennor armor and 2 pieces of the Tower of Orthanc Armor to put an extra 10% incoming crit chance with sign of power: see all ends.

My damage with an average RNG and 100 attacks would now be:
(10000)*50 normal hits
+(30000)*40 critical hits
+(40000)*10 devastating hits
________________________
210000

210000-190000=20000
20000/190000= 10.5% damage increase

That extra 10.5% damage does not take into account all the other benefits from extra crits, such as hunters getting extra focus, captains getting more defeat responses to keep up their buffs and heal more, and more auto-crits for themselves and their blade brother, etc. So, the real damage increase should be significantly more than 10% from the whole raid.

In our last raid, we killed rakothas in about 3 minutes, which equates to 133,000 dps from the raid. So the extra crits would add 13300 dps to the raid.

Suppose you don't like the idea of using 2 pieces of level 75 armor because you think you could do more damage with all new essence armor. You choose to use 4 pelennor + 2 other pieces. The raid loses 6650 dps from the lower crit chance.

In order for your essence armor to add more dps to the raid than the ToO armor, you would have to increase your personal dps on your yellow loremaster by more than 6650 by changing only those 2 pieces of armor. That seems highly unlikely, to put it mildly. Impossible is probably more accurate.

TLDR; for a single-target dps race in a raid, 2 pieces of ToO armor+4 pieces of pelennor armor is the best armor set for a loremaster.

Please check my math and let me know if I missed something, but the conclusion seems obvious to me.







Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
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#13316066 Jun 24, 2017 at 05:09 AM
Knight
189 Posts
While I'm thinking about it, let's consider a couple pet skills from the loremaster.

The bog guardian can put a +5% incoming ranged crit chance on a target for 30 seconds.

Using the math above, let's estimate that +1% crit chance= +1% dps increase.
Over the course of the 30 seconds of the debuff, the hunter will now do 2000 more dps, or 60000 more total damage. If you have 2 hunters doing the same thing, the skill is worth 120,000 damage.

Suppose it takes 5 seconds to summon the bog guardian, use the skill, and dismiss him. If you think you would contribute more to the raid by dps'ing during those 5 seconds instead, you would have to personally do more than 60000 damage in 5 seconds to add more damage than one hunter, or 120000 damage if there are 2 hunters. It seems unlikely on a yellow loremaster. In an aoe fight, it might be possible, but for Rakothas if you're not killing the adds, I don't think a yellow loremaster could ever beat the extra damage from 1 hunter, let alone 2 or more.

What about the bear's +10% incoming ranged and melee damage skill?
With a hunter, a champ, a burg, a captain, and 2 tanks, all getting 10% more damage, the results would be even more lopsided. If the group has only 1 fire rk, the bear debuff might be better than the raven debuff.

In any fight, the loremaster obviously has to decide how they can best contribute to the group. It's always going to be a juggling act between debuffing, healing, crowd control, power sharing, and damage, and you will have to decide which ball you can allow to drop for that fight. But in a 12-person raid, it seems to me that cycling pets is going to add more damage than a few extra yellow loremaster dps skills. I'm curious to see how much damage a well-geared yellow loremaster typically gets, though. I don't build mine for damage, so I don't really know.



Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
+0
#13316522 Jun 24, 2017 at 12:35 PM · Edited 10 months ago
Knight
178 Posts
Critical hits hit about 3x as hard as a normal hit.
Devastates hit about 4x as hard as a normal hit.
Crit chance at 30%
Dev. chance at 10%

Those numbers are just made up; They do not match with what the wiki says. The above percentages are really inflated. I.e:

> Skill use critical hits deal approximately 1.5 times skill max damage.
> Skill use devastating critical hits deal approximately 2.0 times skill max damage.


Source:
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Critical_Rating
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?565801-Calculating-Incoming-Damage

In our last raid, we killed rakothas in about 3 minutes, which equates to 133,000 dps from the raid


T2 Rakotkas has 26,099,450 morale and if it takes us 3 minutes to kill him, the DPS is ~145K (144,996.9) and not 133K as you claim.

Also, there's no such thing as average RNG. The very nature of random numbers is the... well... randomness and entropy of it, preferably with low discrepancy -- A better method would be to /roll (100) 100 times and record your results somewhere rather than assuming an even distribution.

Furthermore, the Armour of the Iordur gives you a +5% Incoming Critical Chance, not +10%.

Additionally, SOP: SAE only lasts (by default) for 15 seconds with a 1 minute CD so the math above is wrongly assuming that the buff is up 100% of the time (it can be increased with legacies and relics but it is not a toggle skill)

And lastly, and probably the most important point is that SOP: See All Ends does not increase the Critical Rating whatsoever, rather it decreases the Critical Chance of a single mob so it does not add extra DPS and instead it just lowers the damage you take from a single mob.

Source:
The tooltip says "Reduces an enemy's ability to score a critical hit."

The raid loses 6650 dps from the lower crit chance.

Where does this magic number come from? Assuming the already flawed logic above: (190K - 145K) / 12 (people?) = 3,750 DPS which is not that hard to achieve on any class other than healer.

And for additional discussion, although I have no hard evidence of this, the additional debuff upon expiration is reportedly bugged so its effects would only last the default 10 seconds and not 10s + whatever extra duration legacy/relic bonuses it may have. This would mean that wasting 2 armor slots on a buff that only gives you +5% crit rating (not to be confused with critical magnitude) for 10 seconds is essentially a waste of armor slots.

Source:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?557820-LM-SKILL-Sign-of-Power-See-all-Ends

TLDR: The math is clearly flawed.

-Gnix
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#13316883 Jun 24, 2017 at 04:48 PM
Knight
189 Posts
I was looking at the hits that my hunter does, with all his traits, legacies, etc. His criticals hit about 3x as hard as a normal hit and devastates hit about 4x as hard. This was from hitting a dummy for a few minutes. Like I said, it will be different with different classes. I think champs have a higher critical multiplier, for example. If the mob has crit defense, it would change the equation. I could test it on mobs in a raid to find out how much crit defense they have.

Armor of the Iurdur has 2-piece bonus of +5% incoming crit chance. The 4-piece bonus from the pelennor instances has +5% bonus as well. That's where the +10% bonus comes from.

In yellow, with the legacy, sign of power: see all ends lasts 65 seconds with a 1-minute cooldown. I'm looking at the tooltip of my character right now. The first ten seconds the - critical rating debuff is doubled. After that expires, it lasts another 55 seconds. That is what the skill does without the armor sets. With the armor sets, it increases incoming ranged, tactical, and melee critical chance by 10% when you're wearing the armor I described. You're right that it's not a toggle skill, but the only thing keeping it from having 100% uptime is the time the player takes to reapply it. You have a 5 second window to reapply it before it expires. So it does have 100% uptime if you reapply it. Again, I'm playing my loremaster right now, putting it on the turtle, watching it tick down and reapplying it before it expires.

The 6650 came from the raid doing 133000 dps and the extra 5% crit chance from the iordur armor leading to roughly another 5% dps from the whole raid. Different raids would be different amounts. I think some groups have killed him in about a minute, so the contribution from the armor in that case would be 3x as large, because they're doing 3x as much dps as our group. I guess our raid probably was doing a little more than 133000 dps, because the boss gets healed. I think your 26M number was when he was level 108. I got my number from yesterday when I went into the raid and looked at his morale. I rounded to the nearest million.

I'm not sure what your point about the RNG is. Yes, it's random, but if your crit chance goes from 30% and you add another 10% to that, in a decent sample size you're going to get about 10% more crits. I don't know what /rolling 100 times would accomplish.

I'd be happy to test it with you in another setting to get numbers that you consider more realistic. My numbers were rounded to make the math easier, but I don't think they're wildly inaccurate. Like I said, critical defense on a mob would make a difference, and different classes have different critical multipliers. I try to be open-minded, and if it turns out the armor is not very helpful in an actual fight, I'll change my armor. But it seems like you're just rejecting it based on incomplete information that you're getting from the wiki.
Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
+0
#13316891 Jun 24, 2017 at 04:55 PM · Edited 9 months ago
Knight
189 Posts
I just noticed the last part of your post. I hadn't heard about this bug. We could test it to find out, if you're interested, but that post is from 2014. I can tell you with 100% certainty that according to the tooltip that it's putting on mobs today, it is staying on them for 65 seconds. If you want to test the critical rating part of it, we could spar and you put it on me. If you want to test the incoming crit chance part, it would take a larger sample size and I don't think it would be possible to determine whether the incoming crit chance is actually affected for the full 65 seconds or some shorter period, but we could certainly look at our overall dps and draw some conclusions from that.
Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
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#13316900 Jun 24, 2017 at 05:00 PM · Edited 10 months ago
Officer
281 Posts
Gnix:

It looks to me like Ali is saying the crit numbers and % he uses, although differing from the WIki, are what he found in testing his hunter before he crunched numbers.

Also, I believe that the Iordur bonus and Pelennor bonus stack; with 5% each that would indeed equal 10%.

I logged into Tiluriel just now and her tooltip indeed says, "Reduces an enemy's ability to score a Critical Hit"; however, underneath where skills sometimes detail their effects, it says, "-4545 Critical Rating; +5% incoming Melee/Ranged/Tactical Critical Chance". So that's where the increased crit rating for everyone else is coming from -- a mob's incoming crit means crits from all attacking them.

If the expiration debuff is truly bugged then you're right that it's only up for 10sec, but if it is not bugged (I haven't tested it yet) then I actually have 100% uptime because the CD is 1 min, initial debuff is 10sec plus 55sec more on expiration for a total of 1 min. 5 sec.

Despite all of this, I do not make use of the Iordur set because I'm not convinced the stacking effect was intentional and I am not personally comfortable taking advantage of that. A moot point, really, though, since I don't seem to take the LM into anything anyway.

Edit: Ali, we must have posted at the same time!
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#13317037 Jun 24, 2017 at 07:04 PM · Edited 10 months ago
Knight
178 Posts
I could say that my RK did 900% damage on a testing dummy but, without actual proof, the claim has no credibility.

I'm all about discussing tactics, numbers, math etc. but jumping to absolute conclusions and making overly wild claims is not very helpful without presenting hard evidence. For example, the statement:

"2 pieces of ToO armor+4 pieces of pelennor armor is the best armor set for a loremaster"

It does not leave room for discussion, evaluation, or review. Instead it assumes it is a solved mystery and that we all should just drink the kool-aid and accept the assertion as is.

-Gnix
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#13365601 Jul 25, 2017 at 01:16 AM
Knight
3 Posts
@alifast

Hi, the lm in the screenshot you posted is me. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

& Re: the stacking +5% of Too with pelennor gear @celordal, it's quite definitely intentional. Think incoming and outgoing healing. Similarly, it's outgoing 5% (buff) which stacks with incoming 5% (debuff).
RK in RK: Chibaku 48

Have 14 toons level capped across servers
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#13365605 Jul 25, 2017 at 01:19 AM
Officer
281 Posts
myic90 -- thanks for the clarification; I can see how that works. Guess it's going to be a moot point soon anyway (whether that type of thing is an exploit or not) since I believe they're capping old set bonuses when Mordor comes out.
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#13366818 Jul 25, 2017 at 05:35 PM
Knight
189 Posts
Welcome to the kin :) Too bad they're getting rid of the old set bonuses. I personally liked them a lot, but oh well. The rift one for hunters I think was clearly OP, but I never used that one anyway. I guess whatever questions I had would be irrelevant now.
Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
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#13367354 Jul 26, 2017 at 04:04 AM
Knight
3 Posts
Thanks ali, I've been in the kin for a while now :) just decided to check out the forums recently.

Re: lm thingy, there's still best practices to follow like pet cycling etc, I can also help with questions about other classes as well.
RK in RK: Chibaku 48

Have 14 toons level capped across servers
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#13676922 Mar 02, 2018 at 12:22 PM
Knight
44 Posts
This was a generic post and nothing to do with Lore Masters. Oh I suppose crit rating can be used for all the classes. But the title says advanced Lore Master Tips. I am still waiting for those tips.
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#13677285 Mar 02, 2018 at 08:13 PM
Knight
189 Posts
The link in the original post was to a screenshot of a loremaster (who later joined the kin, replied in the thread, and may still be around if you want to ask him for more advanced tips) who was using all of the pet debuffs at the same time and using aliases and shortcuts to quickly dismiss and summon all his pets to re-apply them and customized plugins to track which debuffs were active. The post also went into a great deal of detail about why I thought older armor sets were superior to the new ones for a loremaster in certain raids. I have not played the game in a while, but I think they have since nerfed the old armor sets to encourage people to use the new armor, so you can probably ignore that part of the thread. Whether or not cycling the pets to keep up all the debuffs still works or not, I don't know. If those tips were not advanced enough for you, I apologize for my poor choice of thread titles. My experience had been that most loremasters in the kin were choosing one pet at the beginning of a fight and only using that one pet for the entire fight, so I thought my post would be helpful to some. If you have more advanced tips that you would like to share, please feel free.

I also did a little testing with various debuffs and found that not all debuff tooltips work the same way. Fire lore, for example, actually decreases damage by 35% of the final damage amount (40% if you used an unimbued LI with the fire lore debuff strength legacy), so it's extremely powerful in some fights where mobs will 1-shot you without it. Other debuffs like the yellow minstrel debuffs, guardian debuffs, and others, even though the tooltip reads the same way as the fire lore tooltip, they effectively chop off mastery from the mob. So if the mob already has +200% damage and you stacked 3 of the -3% damage debuffs from the minstrel, it gives him +191% damage, but his actual damage amount will be decreased by a lot less than the 9% you might expect. Like I said, I haven't played in a long time, so I'm fuzzy on some of the details, but if you ask nicely I might try to look up some old spreadsheets and other posts I made.
Alifast/Grimbaldin/Alimin/Freabryte/Mohanadan/Bilbaldo/Alirik/Barrysand
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